labingi: (Default)
[personal profile] labingi
I'd love to know what you have seen/heard recently about "lay/lie."

Background: Traditionally, "lay" is transitive and "lie" is intransitive. "I am laying the book down" vs. "I am lying down in bed." I quick web search just now brought up only this distinction on every hit on the first page of results: Cambridge, Grammarly, Merriam-Webster, etc.

Yet I basically never see this distinction enforced anymore (at least in the US?), even in professionally edited work. For example, I was recently reading a traditionally published novella by a professional freelance writer, and it had "lay" for "lie" in an otherwise very standard English narration. Likewise, perusing a (fantastic) essay by [personal profile] lynnenne on the TV Interview with the Vampire, I saw a quote with Louis using "lay" for "lie" in the midst of his very standard English narration, a dialect he consciously adopts presumably because of the privilege it confers over his native African American (AAVE) dialect. So I'd imagine he'd be scrupulous with his words here, yet "lay" = "lie"? (Is he being scrupulous of the fact that in the 2020's no one cares... yet professional writer and Boomer Daniel would probably notice...?)

Are we in a zone where all the standard grammar references say this distinction exists but society has just decided it doesn't? Are editors no longer checking for it? Does anyone know any standard English grammar source that explicitly says, "This is obsolete," like the split infinitive. English teacher (and miniscule minority native English dialect "lie" user) wants to know.

Date: 2023-09-10 05:40 pm (UTC)
kathleen_dailey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kathleen_dailey
Disclaimer: I'm in Canada, and thus can't speak to the US experience.

FWIW, among my colleagues who edit non-fiction, the distinction between "lay" and "lie" is still maintained. Authors are often surprised to learn that "lay" is transitive and "lie" is intransitive--this may be one more point of grammar that's no longer routinely taught in Canadian (or at least Ontario) schools.

Fiction editors, by contrast, tend to allow their authors leeway in the interest of maintaining characterization: if character plausibly and consistently ignores such a distinction in dialogue or an interior monologue, the editor (usually) won't intervene. (However, if neither the editor nor the author understands the distinction, then we end up with your first example--"'lay' for 'lie' in an otherwise very standard English narration.")

You asked, "Are editors no longer checking for it?" In my experience, the editors who remain employed or contracted by publishers are still checking for it. But with fewer and fewer copy editors being trained, hired, and retained, all kinds of solecisms are slipping into professionally published books and newspapers.

Count me among those who find the misuse of "lay" and "lie" jarring enough to notice it every time. But I'm pretty sure that the distinction is on its way to becoming a lost cause.

Date: 2023-09-11 05:11 am (UTC)
genarti: Knees-down view of woman on tiptoe next to bookshelves (Default)
From: [personal profile] genarti
USAian here:

I'm another one who finds the misuse jarring, and notices it every time. I learned it in school (a couple of decades back now, admittedly), but was taught that it was a common error. I feel like for as long as I've been aware of the distinction and jarred by it, though, I've been noticing it in common parlance. I haven't personally noticed an increase, but maybe that's just me being oblivious!

I'd agree that if there is an increase in intransitive "lay" usage in published works, it's probably more because of the increase in works that don't get meaningfully copy edited, rather than because editors are no longer checking. But that's a gut feeling based on anecdota, really.

Date: 2023-09-11 03:19 am (UTC)
vilakins: Vila with stars superimposed (Default)
From: [personal profile] vilakins
"Lay" seems to be a North Americanism (a Canadian friend was puzzled when I called her on its use), and yes, it should be transitive. I shout at the screen every time someone says it instead of "lie". Maybe people there don't like that it sounds like telling an untruth? Or it's a widespread regional thing, like the US "a ways" and "anyways".

The other one that I hear all the time on US series is "I" as an object, e.g. "Sam gave it to Chris and I". That probably originates in hypercorrection, though increasingly "me" is used as a subject, along with others, e.g. "Her and me are going". One day they might be completely swapped. :/

I'm certainly not against language evolving or using slang, especially when it becomes more expressive, but those two annoy the hell out of me.

Date: 2023-09-12 02:25 pm (UTC)
kernezelda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kernezelda
I think the first time I noticed it was in a theatre a few years ago, when a song playing before the movie used 'laying' on a bed instead of 'lying' on a bed (not putting something on the bed, and not laying in a Biblical sense). Another one that peeves me and shows no signs of stopping is 'try and verb' instead of 'try to verb.' Try what? What is the meaning of 'try and' in the sentence? Sadly I've forgotten most of the labels and parts of speech, and have always had difficulty with object/subject; I can write it, but can't describe what I'm saying.

Date: 2023-09-14 02:18 pm (UTC)
kernezelda: (FB Car Wars)
From: [personal profile] kernezelda
I've seen it in the way people talk, but hadn't noticed it before then (2017) being used in a nationally/internationally(?) popular song, and wondered, didn't the editor notice?

"If I lay here, if I just lay here
Would you lie with me and just forget the world?"
(Snow Patrol, Chasing Cars[released 2006, but I don't follow the band])

Clearly, the correct usage is present in the second line!

It irked/irks me.

Also, I'm in Florida! :D

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