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I'd love to know what you have seen/heard recently about "lay/lie."
Background: Traditionally, "lay" is transitive and "lie" is intransitive. "I am laying the book down" vs. "I am lying down in bed." I quick web search just now brought up only this distinction on every hit on the first page of results: Cambridge, Grammarly, Merriam-Webster, etc.
Yet I basically never see this distinction enforced anymore (at least in the US?), even in professionally edited work. For example, I was recently reading a traditionally published novella by a professional freelance writer, and it had "lay" for "lie" in an otherwise very standard English narration. Likewise, perusing a (fantastic) essay by
lynnenne on the TV Interview with the Vampire, I saw a quote with Louis using "lay" for "lie" in the midst of his very standard English narration, a dialect he consciously adopts presumably because of the privilege it confers over his native African American (AAVE) dialect. So I'd imagine he'd be scrupulous with his words here, yet "lay" = "lie"? (Is he being scrupulous of the fact that in the 2020's no one cares... yet professional writer and Boomer Daniel would probably notice...?)
Are we in a zone where all the standard grammar references say this distinction exists but society has just decided it doesn't? Are editors no longer checking for it? Does anyone know any standard English grammar source that explicitly says, "This is obsolete," like the split infinitive. English teacher (and miniscule minority native English dialect "lie" user) wants to know.
Background: Traditionally, "lay" is transitive and "lie" is intransitive. "I am laying the book down" vs. "I am lying down in bed." I quick web search just now brought up only this distinction on every hit on the first page of results: Cambridge, Grammarly, Merriam-Webster, etc.
Yet I basically never see this distinction enforced anymore (at least in the US?), even in professionally edited work. For example, I was recently reading a traditionally published novella by a professional freelance writer, and it had "lay" for "lie" in an otherwise very standard English narration. Likewise, perusing a (fantastic) essay by
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Are we in a zone where all the standard grammar references say this distinction exists but society has just decided it doesn't? Are editors no longer checking for it? Does anyone know any standard English grammar source that explicitly says, "This is obsolete," like the split infinitive. English teacher (and miniscule minority native English dialect "lie" user) wants to know.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-10 05:40 pm (UTC)FWIW, among my colleagues who edit non-fiction, the distinction between "lay" and "lie" is still maintained. Authors are often surprised to learn that "lay" is transitive and "lie" is intransitive--this may be one more point of grammar that's no longer routinely taught in Canadian (or at least Ontario) schools.
Fiction editors, by contrast, tend to allow their authors leeway in the interest of maintaining characterization: if character plausibly and consistently ignores such a distinction in dialogue or an interior monologue, the editor (usually) won't intervene. (However, if neither the editor nor the author understands the distinction, then we end up with your first example--"'lay' for 'lie' in an otherwise very standard English narration.")
You asked, "Are editors no longer checking for it?" In my experience, the editors who remain employed or contracted by publishers are still checking for it. But with fewer and fewer copy editors being trained, hired, and retained, all kinds of solecisms are slipping into professionally published books and newspapers.
Count me among those who find the misuse of "lay" and "lie" jarring enough to notice it every time. But I'm pretty sure that the distinction is on its way to becoming a lost cause.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-11 02:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-09-11 05:11 am (UTC)I'm another one who finds the misuse jarring, and notices it every time. I learned it in school (a couple of decades back now, admittedly), but was taught that it was a common error. I feel like for as long as I've been aware of the distinction and jarred by it, though, I've been noticing it in common parlance. I haven't personally noticed an increase, but maybe that's just me being oblivious!
I'd agree that if there is an increase in intransitive "lay" usage in published works, it's probably more because of the increase in works that don't get meaningfully copy edited, rather than because editors are no longer checking. But that's a gut feeling based on anecdota, really.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-11 03:48 pm (UTC)In the grand scheme, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Most of my English teacher colleagues seem all for challenging, downplaying, and possibly jettisoning Standard English. I don't agree with that last one, but there are good arguments about language privilege for less gatekeeping.
I'd love to hear more robust discussion, though, about what level of gatekeeping is helpful. For example, I don't want to go back to the days of Chaucer, when you had to sound out words as you went, not that we're in any immediate danger of that, just an extreme example.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-11 03:19 am (UTC)The other one that I hear all the time on US series is "I" as an object, e.g. "Sam gave it to Chris and I". That probably originates in hypercorrection, though increasingly "me" is used as a subject, along with others, e.g. "Her and me are going". One day they might be completely swapped. :/
I'm certainly not against language evolving or using slang, especially when it becomes more expressive, but those two annoy the hell out of me.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-11 03:43 pm (UTC)Your examples also raise interesting points for me about native dialect. For me, "a ways" sounds perfectly normal, even though I get intellectually that "singular + plural" makes no sense. "A way away" feels very odd to my ear. OTOH, every time I hear "anyways," which is also creeping into semi-professional writing, I feel like I'm listening to a five year old, possibly because I first heard it from friends in my early schooling.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-12 02:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-09-12 11:18 pm (UTC)I think "try and [do X]" is sufficiently part of my native dialect that it doesn't stand out to me. I couldn't even tell you if I use it much. I definitely wouldn't use it in formal writing though, and probably not even in my science fiction dialogue. It feels odd to write.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-14 02:18 pm (UTC)"If I lay here, if I just lay here
Would you lie with me and just forget the world?"
(Snow Patrol, Chasing Cars[released 2006, but I don't follow the band])
Clearly, the correct usage is present in the second line!
It irked/irks me.
Also, I'm in Florida! :D
no subject
Date: 2023-09-14 03:12 pm (UTC)I came across lay/lie being used interchangeably in a Lana Del Rey song too. It was punning hard on "lie down" and "tell a lie" and then inserted "lay down" in one line. It was written out that way in the CD lyrics, but I don't know if it was originally intentional or a recording error. If intentional, no idea why.